our inquiry to yorkshire police
hello
can you please let me know the legal / official position on us using small plastic arrows and slightly larger hazard warning signs – cable tied to road signposts on the public highway for riders on non-competitive cycling events we organize in the nw area
have attached photos of our signage in use
we put the signs out several days before our events – as there are only 2 of us doing it – and it takes 2 x 12 + hour days to complete this
our events are all on sundays – 1st one is in yorkshire dales on 10 april – and it is registered with nth yorkshire police
i personally spend 12 + hours on the monday after each event removing all the signage – which we then reuse for the next one
this is common practice for 100s if not 1000s of similar cycling events throughout the uk
we have had dealings with a local chap who for last 3 years has removed our signs from the dale head area – where he lives – making our ride dangerous and the route unclear to riders who don t know the area
i believe this to be theft of our property – but he considers the signs to be rubbish and takes it upon himself to remove them time and again – at a cost £100+ thus far
i believe it is not an offence to do as we do – but wonder if we can get a second / professional opinion please
all our cycling events are registered and overseen by british cycling (the sport’s governing body) and they agree that it is common practice to do as we do – but also that this is a common problem – with signage being regularly altered or removed prior or during events nationwide
i would like some clarity on the legality of –
• us putting signs up
• him removing and keeping / discarding them
best regards
chris + lynn @ top dog events limited
yorkshire polices reply
good morning,
due to the placement of the signage, it would be the local council you would need to consult on this matter. with regards to the gentleman taking the signage down, this would be something to report on 101 if it happens again so further advice can be issued on where the police stand on these matters as they will depend on the circumstances.
best wishes,
force control room
north yorkshire police
mike bellion letting us know he has reported us to south lakes county council
for your records.
———- forwarded message ———
from: mike bellion
date: thu, 7 apr 2022 at 15:40
subject: re: sldc – fly posting
to: mcvey, matthew
dear matthew,
thank you your response relating to fly posting in rural areas. presently, one major area of concern is the increasing number of plastic signs and directional arrows laid along the routes of cycle ‘events’. this plastic intrusion is seldom removed after the race (sorry, event) and is left to local communities to remove it and associated plastic fastening devices for disposal.
one repeat offender is top dog events who seemingly are based in carnforth. one representative of this company threatened to “put a fucking brick” through my windscreen if i did not return his plastic sign.
should this nuisance continue from top dog, or any other offenders, rest assured i will contact you with details and relevant images.
thank you for your efforts so far.
kind regards, mike bellion
on thu, 7 apr 2022 at 14:15, mcvey, matthew > wrote:
dear mr bellion
thank you for your email regarding fly posting, and apologies for the delay in my response.
fly posting in rural areas is a topic we’re becoming increasingly aware of and as the local authority will investigate. as your email highlights, the fly posting you experience best fits into the following category;
“(i) adverts primarily for local events, often photocopies put up in large numbers on a regular basis. these may advertise bands playing in pubs, car-boot sales and fairgrounds. they may be attached to lampposts, railings, and street furniture or pasted on buildings.”
powers are available to deal with both the people who put up fly-posting and those that benefit from it, as well as the removal of fly-posting materials and helping maintain the visual appeal of an area. if the fly-posting is to be considered unreasonable behavior, that is persistent or of a continuing nature and that has had a detrimental impact on the quality of life in the locality, then the provisions of the anti-social behavior, crime and policing act 2014 may also be considered.
if fly posting continues to be a problem in your locality, please report to south lakeland district council with attached photographs.
kind regards
matthew mcvey | locality officer
south lakeland district council
chris’s message to south lakes county council
good morning, matthew
i hope you are well ????
i believe that a mr mike bellion has recently contacted you – re the cycling events that my company organise
mr bellion has been removing the safety signs that we place in the cowgill area of the dales for the past 4 years (making a steep descent into dentdale potentially dangerous and contravening our very thorough risk assessment) we caught him doing it last year and one of my team confronted him to demand the return of our signs from mr bellion’s car when he refused to hand them over
i did return to his house the following day to discuss this matter with him and due to him not being at home left a business card with my details on and a request for him to contact me, which he failed to do
i did however finally manage to have a talk with him a few weeks ago, while cycling past his house, he was very unhelpful and entrenched in his opinion that although he knows very well who owns the signs, their purpose, how long and why they are being displayed and when they will be removed and by whom – he remained adamant that they are rubbish that has been discarded in the area, and that he feels it is his right and indeed duty to remove them as soon as they appear –
i returned home to an e mail off the gentleman – and the ensuing discussion can be seen here –
i would like to give our version of our operation in the hope that you can clarify the situation – while giving me some guidance on the issue
we live and work locally, in carnforth and have been organising non-competitive cycling events in the lakes, dales, bowland and silverdale area since 1997 – 15 successful events have been held, without incident, that have been attracting visitors from all over the uk to the region, they have been well received and have showcased this great area for cycling in which we reside –
we had plastic arrows made as well as larger hazard warning signs, at considerable expense, that we felt were unobtrusive and most importantly re-usable to mark the routes of our rides to visitors unfamiliar with the area, we used plastic cable ties to attach them to signposts/ telegraph poles/streetlights or when none of these were available, plastic electric fence posts we bought –
we placed between 250 and 500 of these signs around our routes, depending on the length, between 63 and 108 miles, and the number of junctions / hazards encountered
it took myself and my partner around 24 hours to complete this over 2 x 12 hour long days, usually the wednesday and thursday before an event, which are always on sundays, i would then always personally spend 14+ hours on the following monday removing each and every one of our signs and arrows, to be used on the next event, along with the severed cable ties, to be recycled with plastic bottles at the local tip in carnforth
mr bellions statement that “this plastic intrusion is seldom removed after the race (sorry event) and is left to local communities remove it” is simply untrue as he well knows.
he also persists in calling our events “races” when he knows full well they are non competitive cycling challenges – known as sportives – overseen / governed and insured by british cycling – the sport’s governing body
he has also taken to calling what we do “fly posting” which i am not sure it is, we put out no promotional material at all, as it is done online
i would also like to assure you that while we have been putting up and removing our event signs over the years, we have taken some pride in removing old signs, fly posters, rotting cable ties and string – while at the same time trimming back foliage that has grown over many a road sign, making them invisible to drivers
so that’s our side of the argument i guess – it would be great to know how we stand with the council in doing what we do – we have never sought your permission to do this as
1. i did not think we had to, as we operate on the public highway and require no permission to do this
2. did not know who to approach till now
for your records, this will all become quite irrelevant as we have now cancelled all our events in the nw area, and are busy revisiting the way we run these very popular events using modern technology that will negate the need to use all this signage to keep our riders safe and on the right track
best regards
chris packman – managing director
top dog events limited
south lakes county council reply
good afternoon chris
thank you for your email and apologies for the delay in my response.
i appreciate your comments and the fact that the signs are removed after races. i will discuss the situation with my team leader, who is currently on leave but back in next week , as it appears from what you’ve described your signs are for the safety of the riders as opposed to advertisement.
kind regards
matthew mcvey | locality officer
south lakeland district council
chris’s reply to south lakes county council
good afternoon, matthew
sent earlier reply from my phone
thanks for your reply – our signs are indeed purely for the safety and dare i say it enjoyment of our riders – who can relax and ride in great areas without the stress of having to navigate their way round – which is why they enter events like we run ????
i hope you can see the absurdity of the stance and actions taken by mr bellion – as well as how i have tried my best to be reasonable and patient with him thus far
all this has prompted us to alter the way we run our events – and from now on will resort to using it and modern technology to guide riders round our routes – as we have much better things to do than spend several days erecting and retrieving hundreds of signs – then worrying about whether they will still be in place on event day and dealing with the likes of mr bellion
i would still be interested in the councils position on using signage as we have been doing – as i know several other cycling event organisers are watching our situation with great interest
best regards
chris + lynn @ top dog events limited
last message from south lakes county council
good morning,
apologies for the delay in my response.
having discussed the situation with our team, this does not meet the criteria of fly-posting and we will not pursue any further action.
in regards to temporary signage please see the attached cumbria county council’s service procedure regarding temporary signs. event organisers should email [email protected] for approval of temporary signage on the highway.
kind regards
matthew mcvey | locality officer
south lakeland district council
chris’s message to south lakes council traffic team re temporary signage
good morning
i have been organising cycling events in the nw for last 5 x years
www.topdogevents.co.uk
i have never notified anyone about the route marking arrows or safety warning signs we have used- as i did not know how to or who to contact ????
we have cancelled our 2022 events due to our signs continually being tampered with or removed ☹️
should ever decide to give it another go,- can you give me guidance as to what we need to do regards seeking your approval please ,,??
best regards
chris @ top dog events limited